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Home > TME Community > Features > The Daily Critique > Jan from Washington - November 26, 2008
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Jan from Washington - November 26, 2008
Started November 25, 2008 @ 5:30pm by Kel
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Kel
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Posts: 246 |
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| Jan from Washington - November 26, 2008 | November 25, 2008 @ 5:30pm | In Today’s critique Craig talks about how quality of light, expression and gesture are the most important things in portraiture. Craig also discuses taking a good shot and making it even better by simplifying and crystallizing the main message. Craig discusses how bright versus dark, contrast versus low contrast, warm color versus cool color, sharp versus out of focus, saturated versus desaturated, and static or balanced versus dynamic are all concepts that can be used to accentuate our main ideas as photographers.
"There are always two people in every picture: the photographer and the viewer." ~Ansel Adams | My Blog |
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Last Edit: November 26, 2008 @ 12:05am by Guest | |
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| November 26, 2008 @ 1:06am | Craig,
Another terrific critique. Very much appreciated to get your continued insight and teaching.
I did not do anything to the lighting. But it was late afternoon (around 6pm) and the sun was bright and low. We were on a North East facing street corner on 6th Ave, so most likely the catch light is a building across the street reflecting the late afternoon sun.
I love the enhancements you made. Below is the original camera capture. As you can see most of my edits were along the lines of simplifying the background and adding the motion blur on the car.
I did the simplify part to eliminate distractions. What I did not complete was dealing with the newly created negative spaces avoiding eye traps. Your color harmonies are very effective, and this is something I will keep in mind on future photos.
In general I find myself not always pushing hard enough during editing. So this was helpful to see where I stopped prematurely in my effort.
Cheers,
Jan
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Craig
Administrator
Posts: 699 |
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| Thank you | November 26, 2008 @ 5:50am | Wow Jan,
Its incredible to see the journey this image has made. I like this original version a lot.... with a few slight changes possibly /maybe better than what I ended up with after editing your version. I love the harmonizing reflections of the buildings in this version....I also love his reflection.... Seeing this makes me want to do an extended Podcast or article on the philosophy of editing.... Craig
“Anxiety is the dizziness of freedom.” -Soren Kierkegaard
“The secret of life…is to fall seven times and to get up eight times.” - Paulo Coelho, from The Alchemist
PPY
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Last Edit: November 26, 2008 @ 5:51am by Craig | |
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| Flow | November 26, 2008 @ 7:23am | Craig,
Very nice post processing. I might add a couple of adjustments. (a) Clone out the metal element merging with the hat. Even w reduced contrast, my eye finds it distracting.
You know I am keen on hi/low levels of contrast, luminance, hue and saturation as well as selective use of sharpness. I would consider a little more flow of light. (b) Using Overlay Layer filled with 50% Gray and a soft brush at 3% opacity, I would have hi-lited the forward cheek (and other parts of the face) to pull the viewer's eye. (c) And finally, my signature 1-stop darker Curves Layer with a Reflected Gradient Mask, the latter oriented vertically masking the model centered about the forward eye.
Rick |
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Wes
Posts: 8,976 |
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| November 26, 2008 @ 10:13am | Craig, for the first time I was able to sort of predict what you were going to do to this image. I am excited that I am learning a lot. Thanks.
Also, I love your images Jan. Looking forward to seeing more on the critique.
Wes |
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Craig
Administrator
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| Uh Oh | November 26, 2008 @ 10:18am | Uh Oh...that's the beginning of the end!!!
Thank you for being here Wes and thank you for all you contribute to this community and thank you for all of the amazing support of our workshop program this year. Happy Thanksgiving my friend!!!....Craig
“Anxiety is the dizziness of freedom.” -Soren Kierkegaard
“The secret of life…is to fall seven times and to get up eight times.” - Paulo Coelho, from The Alchemist
PPY
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Flo
Posts: 17,472 |
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| November 26, 2008 @ 10:21am | Jan, this is such a powerful image - a lot of the power is due to this guy's wonderful expression. He looks like he's very happy to interact with you/viewers. My husband also thinks this is a powerful image.
I was so inspired that I decided to try my hand at working on this image BEFORE I see what Craig did with it. Hope you don't mind, Jan. So here's my result:
So thanks once again, Jan - I love your portraits so keep on posting, OK?
And now, Craig, I'll go see how you handled this wonderful image. 
Flo
Flo - PPY
"May we live in peace without weeping. May our joy outline the lives we touch without ceasing. And may our love fill the world, angel wings beating." aziza
http://photos.tonebytone.com |
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| November 26, 2008 @ 10:51am |
Quote (Craig)
Seeing this makes me want to do an extended Podcast or article on the philosophy of editing.... Craig |
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I would love that.
There is so much opportunity in the editing process to take images to a whole other level, even if we start out with a great capture. A painter gets to stare at his image for days and tweak. Behind the camera, even if we're most careful and deliberate in studio we never have the level of control and feedback loop that you have while editing.
I think two aspects I find interesting about editing: One is how to keep pushing the boundaries of editing, how do you open up new mental spaces? The other is how to get multiple point of views. What transpired in these two threads are two things: One is that you added your wealth of photographic experience on top, the other one is that you added a second set of eyes. There is tremendous value in involving other opinions, to reflect, to get a feedback loop going. Something hard to accomplish when we sit alone at our computers and stare at an image forever. At the same time it's not just the quantity of feedback, but also the quality of feedback. You inherently give an effective reviewer a lot of power / trust over your piece of work, so there has to be a functioning relationship.
This is an interesting aspect of this community by the way, and the other day I had written a long response to Flo about what people are willing and not willing to say to each other when critiquing images.
To illustrate that point: By the nature of your background and role in TME you have a lot of inherent authority, I put a lot of weight in your suggestions / feedback. My personal reaction to rickallen's comment above is not nearly as positive. Which has nothing to do with the quality of his feedback, it may in fact be as good or even better than yours. But I don't know rickallen, never seen his work, have no concept of his authority. As such it's not as effective in feedback. That is different with folks on TME who I've met during workshops, such as either Bryan Allen, or Bastinelli who again I have a reference point for.
Jan |
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Last Edit: November 26, 2008 @ 10:59am by Guest | |
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Tim Clifton
Posts: 145 |
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| November 26, 2008 @ 11:45am | Jan & Craig,
Wonderful DC today. I really appreciate seeing the original image and how it was dealt with by both Jan and Craig,
Craig, thanks for continuing to stretch our boundaries of editing and how we look at our work. It is always a joy to expand our horizons and have the encouragement from your critiques.
Wes, thanks for your comment on trying to anticipate what Craig would do. It is interesting to look at the image prior to starting the video and think what would I do to this image.
Thanks again Jan for your image, Craig for your great suggestions and inspiration, and the great community at TME.
Happy Thanksgiving to all.
Tim |
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| Terrific street shot Jan! | November 26, 2008 @ 12:04pm | A little OT but I find the fact that you paid for this ONE shot amussing and wonder if this gent has a price list for number of shots, poses, etc. like at a fast food joint? Did he show you a menu to choose from? I always try to pay with prints of the shot but have yet to part with any cash. As to the photo, I like what Craig did with the file you gave him but now seeing the original I actually like it better as the starting point. The non vertical building lines actually suggest (to me) the crush and/or hustle and bustle of the big city so I'm not sure I would straighten them? I too would love to see and hear Craig's take on editing using your original as a starting point. To be honest I almost like sitting at the computer working on photos as much as I like taking the photos. Maybe it's because I shot film for 40+ years before I ever had a computer and program to really do the editing? To summarize -- this is really good stuff!! Thanks Jan and Craig.
Murry |
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Craig
Administrator
Posts: 699 |
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| Thank you | November 26, 2008 @ 12:09pm | Hi Tim,
Thank you for the very kind words of support.... I hope you and your family have a very happy Thanksgiving.
Jan... thank you for the ongoing dialogue. An interesting word or two about Rick because I do know him.... I personally put an enormous amount of weight on his suggestions because I know he is an amazing retoucher (and photographer). We hope to have Rick join us as a contributor.
So.... a big thank you to Rick for being here with his suggestions.... and Jan your point is very well taken. Trust at the point of collaboration is the basis of most of the good that comes out of collaborating. Paul McCartney just came out with what I believe is his best album since Wings or maybe even the Beatles...There is an amazing article here describing his collaboration with music producer wunderkind Youth (aka Martin Glover) and he talks about the part that trust played in their creative process.... this article is essentially a guide on how to take your creativity, no matter what type of art you make, to the next level.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/7746904.stm
Happy Thanks giving to everyone here..... Craig
“Anxiety is the dizziness of freedom.” -Soren Kierkegaard
“The secret of life…is to fall seven times and to get up eight times.” - Paulo Coelho, from The Alchemist
PPY
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Last Edit: November 26, 2008 @ 12:10pm by Craig | |
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Usha
Posts: 1,545 |
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| Thank You | November 26, 2008 @ 1:00pm | Jan, First of all, my congratulations to you on two very beautiful images. I have seen your work and have had a chance to meet you. I feel you are very creative, very deliberate and extremely helpful with your talents and advice to others who need it. I have really appreciated that about you. Thank you for sharing such inspiring images.
Craig, I also want to thank you for the very inspiring and helpful critiques on Jan's images. To me the recent critiques have been treasure troves of teaching/learning. I am really enjoying the focussed comments. In addition, (I hope this comes out the way I mean it), your critiques have some real comments on improvements...while maitaining your supportive style. In the past, once in a while (rarely) I have felt that you focus a lot on the supportiveness of the critique to the point of me wanting you to be slightly more "critqueky" on the improvements. I feel recently, you are doing a lot more of very valuable and helpful adjustments...while still maintaining the amazing supportiveness that is your style to the core. I appreciate that very much.
All this has, in my mind generated very meaningful discussions and an almost "adult" conversation among the community members. I must confess, once in a while, I have found the community to be very focussed on the supportiveness aspect...to a point that I was not learning anything new. We were all JUST being encouraging. DOn;t get me wrong, I LOVE that about this group of people. It is unique and I would not make RV/TME such a big part of my life if the poeple were not who they are. I am very grateful to have a place like this. However, I am really enjoying the meaningful conversations, ideas and phylosophical discussions that are going on in the comment section of your DCs. It is a testament to the quality of the critiques. Thank you Craig for such an invigorating experience. I am learing so much from the DC AAANNNDDD the bonus discussions that are going on by the community members after they have watched the DC.
How lucky I feel. This is one of the many things I am grateful for this Thanksgiving.
Happy times ahead
Usha
Usha - PPY
http://www.ushavedula.com
http://ushav.posterous.com/ |
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ohiomitch
Posts: 1 |
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| Jan's Image | November 26, 2008 @ 1:19pm | As a much less experienced photographer, I really enjoyed your modifications to Jan's image. Although I thought his to be great to begin with, the final result was outstanding. Now my questions: (1) How did you straighten just the pillar in the background (right)? (2) It appears that the top of the subject's white hat is jagged, possibly from the selection process used to change the background. If so, would you not want to smooth that out? If you did wish to do that, what would be your methodology?
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Craig
Administrator
Posts: 699 |
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| Thank you | November 26, 2008 @ 1:34pm | Hi Ohio Mitch,
Thank you for being here. Yes there is some kind of selection issue that you are seeing created by me working fast on a small file. The way I would fix it is work at 100 percent and just use a layer mask to do a better job of blending the layer with the selected information with the original information from the background layer. Would be super easy to fix..... Craig
“Anxiety is the dizziness of freedom.” -Soren Kierkegaard
“The secret of life…is to fall seven times and to get up eight times.” - Paulo Coelho, from The Alchemist
PPY
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JohnC
Posts: 763 |
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| November 26, 2008 @ 6:46pm | Hi Usha.
Your comments resonate very strongly with me. I sometimes struggle to find the balance between encouragement and critique here and other situations. But it is stronger here. I'm not sure what to say when I see things that I want to point out, but the image already has a long string of "wow, that's great" replies above mine. Do I just accept that I see the image differently and let it go? Do I post as the curmudgeon who differs with all the others? Am I too technical vs. artistic?
Some of this also goes back to a discussion I tried to start a couple of weeks ago, but only got one person to respond to (thanks, Wes!!) about Photography being a process or a product. If I knew the photographer's feelings on this it might sway my comments, or at least set my own expectations on their images.
I often have two competing thought processes when trying to critique. One says "the image is about what you end up with and not about how you got there." That lackluster image of a remote jungle village that you love because in the image you see your struggle to get there, while everyone else sees a mud hut in bad light.
The other thought process is that photography is a process. It is the relationship with the subject and the experience of making the photo that counts. That we end up with a beautiful print to share or sell is the icing on the cake. But the experience would be just as wonderful if there was no resultant image. You enjoyed the life experience.
Going back to critiques, basically, I want to be encouraging. But I don't want that to turn into idle "that's great" responses that might temporarily trap someone at their current level. And I don't want to be so critical that it becomes discouraging.
Craig, you do a great job of this. Despite the flack you've taken over "in a perfect world..."
John
John Cornicello
Seattle, wa
http://www.johncornicello.com |
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| November 26, 2008 @ 7:17pm | John,
Interesting comments. Very much relate to a lot of them. Look at any of these communities, and there are less than 10% of comments that I see others make that are truly helpful to the topic of photographic critique. The rest is either pure socializing or publicity stunts. Not that there's anything wrong with socializing, but it would be nice to do that in communities dedicated to it.
The other thing is that these communities often mix people at various experience levels, and someone like you who has many years of experience and could actually provide constructive critique gets either overpowered or feel out of touch from all the uuing and ahhhing that's based on a different experience level.
In an ideal world folks with equal or better experience level (relative to a particular image and it's creator) are the ones providing the critique, and those with lesser experience level provide the crowd / client pleaser test. That is not meant in any disrespectful way to the lesser experienced, it's just a way to make it a meaningful interaction that allows everyone to grow and not distort it.
In terms of end result vs. process - it depends on what your question is. The process answers whether it was sheer luck or is a repeatable skill level that got you there, which may predict what future results might be. That is important if you're going to hire this photographer, would like to collaborate with him on a project, etc. Whether this particular result hit the bullseye isn't that important, though may still shed light on the accuracy. The end result is only important if it's all about this one image which you may buy, but you don't care if that photographer will ever produce anything close to that good. As it comes to critique, I think only the process type of interaction is really useful. If someone got there by sheer luck, the critique of how the image could be improved is not as meaningful because it's not applicable to any repeatable process that the suggestions could be used on.
We've all seen beginners get lucky and take amazing shots. And we all were beginners ourselves at some point in time.
Jan |
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Last Edit: November 26, 2008 @ 7:45pm by Guest | |
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JohnC
Posts: 763 |
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| November 26, 2008 @ 8:15pm | Jan, I think you are looking at process/product similarly to the way I have. What I'm trying to do now, though is consider the intention of photographers. I know many photographers who have no interest in "going professional," getting paid, etc. For them, the joy is in the process. Some like to work with vintage equipment. Some like to have the latest and greatest. Their final output, as shown in camera clubs and salons, might not be very inspiring to me. But it is to them. They get more enjoyment out of their photos than some "pros" will ever come close to. Is their output any less of a photograph? Or is it maybe more? Just things to think about...
John
John Cornicello
Seattle, wa
http://www.johncornicello.com |
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Flo
Posts: 17,472 |
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| November 27, 2008 @ 7:37am | Thanks to all who have contributed their thoughts to this thread. WOW!
About the goals/visions of the image maker:
Right now in my process of shooting, post processing and looking at not only my own image, but also others' - I'm torn between two "visions." I'm trying to reconcile them and I know I can do this - I just haven't arrived at that point yet.
The first vision/goal is to find beauty nearly everywhere, to record what I see and then to try to convey that beauty to others who may view my finished result.
Ted's vision/goal is the 2nd which I am just now trying to convey - but I can't seem to convey this in many of my attempts. Ted wants to take viewers through the frame into the image, whirl them around and fling them quite beyond what's apparent, into each viewer's creativity - so each viewer can find/resurrect/create an emotion/story that's not only archetypal, but also uniquely each viewer's own - as seen/felt through each viewer's own filter of experiences.
Ye gads - I hope I'm making some sense to at least some of you who will read this. And I hope I've interpreted Ted's vision/goal somewhere close to how he feels. Ted I hope you read this and I hope you'll comment.
For instance, I see beauty in the form of an egg. So I'd shoot an egg just plain white on white with just enough suggestion of shadows to convey the illusion of this beautiful simple 3-dimensional form.
The egg, however, is an archetype, but also a symbol for many of man's activities. So how to reveal this archetype and/or symbolic aspect of a particular activity of mankind?
Recently the news reports and commentators have been talking about how retirees' nest eggs have diminished greatly in value. So - how to depict this concept photographically, using a real egg as the symbol?
I know how I'll do it - and it'll probably take several attempts - but I think I can pull it off so viewers will "get" the message.
But - what would a viewer from only 5 years ago see/feel? Back then, people were confident that their nest eggs would increase in value.
And 5 years from now, how will a viewer feel looking at this same image? 10 years, 50 years?
So in a case like this, which involves current events, I feel very strongly that words will be needed, too, to help the viewer understand the maker's purpose. This is why I've been creating my Musings website - so the words and the image together convey what my vision/feelings were/are for each of those images.
Maybe I've strayed a little too far for the subject of being supportive plus giving meaningful critiquing comments for the image posted in the TME community. If so, I apologize.
Thanks so much, again, to everyone involved with this community. You all have enriched my life beyond measure.
Flo
Flo - PPY
"May we live in peace without weeping. May our joy outline the lives we touch without ceasing. And may our love fill the world, angel wings beating." aziza
http://photos.tonebytone.com |
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| November 27, 2008 @ 1:09pm |
Quote (JohnC)
Some like to have the latest and greatest. |
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Very true. I had a defining experience on that point. I was at one of the local flickr group Brews & Pubs meetups. It was the week the Nikon D700 came out, and someone had just bought it at Glazer's and was showing it off, and everyone was drooling over this latest and greatest.
So far so good. Then he commented on the fact what he didn't like about the camera: it had too many knobs and dials, and he would now have to figure out some of them.
So it was all about that he had the latest and greatest on the day it launched. It had nothing to do with the fact that some of these knobs and dials may have enabled him to take his work to another level, and that this was the reason he invested his money into this gear. And so likely he will never take a better picture then he did with his previous camera, or probably the camera before that.
That was the moment I decided I was done with flickr! Not because there's anything wrong with that attitude - if that's what makes them happy, that's great. It's just not my cup of tea.
Jan |
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Last Edit: November 27, 2008 @ 1:12pm by Guest | |
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| My head is hurting! | November 27, 2008 @ 3:29pm | I've been shooting for 54+ years and have never thought as much about why I do it as you folks have in this one thread. For me it just feels right and comes natural. I use to poo-poo the "atta boy" comments but no so much anymore. I figure if you get ten "great shot" comments then you've reached ten people and they took their time to say something positive even if it's not too helpful. Much better than hearing "Boy that camera sure takes good pictures" or nothing at all. When I comment all I have to offer is my own experince and I try to do it in a constructive manner. The recipient can use it as they wish. I never plan to be a pro but I sure plan on having fun the rest of my life making images that please me and hopefully a few others. I'm enjoying this thread a great deal!!
Murry |
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JohnC
Posts: 763 |
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| November 27, 2008 @ 4:36pm | I recently had a friend say, "I saw those photos. You really have a great camera." To which I replied, "If I served you a great meal would you comment on how good my pots were?"
JC
John Cornicello
Seattle, wa
http://www.johncornicello.com |
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Györffy (Peter)
Posts: 241 |
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| April 14, 2009 @ 8:40am | Indeed. Thanks for pointing that out.
Jan |
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assignment
Community Assignment #53
Picture Window
Due Date: September 16, 2011 |
Have you heard about the Backyard Shots Photography Guide "Street Portraiture with CraigTanner"?
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